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  #1  
Old 06-30-2008, 02:21 PM
yossarian's Avatar
yossarian yossarian is offline
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Lapel Pin Patriotism

With the 4th of July fast approaching, I thought I'd pose the following question: what is patriotism?

It seems many view patriotism in the context of outward signs of loyalty. American flag lapel pins, "I [Heart] USA" bumper stickers, tearing up during a singing of "God Bless the USA," etc.

Not that any of the above are bad -- I've got nothing against a red, white and blue thong, so long as the person wearing it is female. What worries me is that patriotism for the average US citizen (even the rabid enthusiast) can be equated to the dedication of the average sports fan. A surface display of insignia and manufactured emotion, designed to produce a hazy sense of overall goodness toward the country and its history.

Of course, it's not always quite that hollow. Pride in our soldiers (past and present), when they serve honorably, is a sacred thing and certainly a large part of any true patriot's repertoire.

However, patriotism is much less often thought of in the context of dissent. Those who challenge the government’s policies are often branded as traitors, disloyal fans of Team USA. What these “keepers of the flag” so conveniently ignore is the simple, incontrovertible fact that what makes our country one of the greatest on Earth is not the pride of its citizens, but the wisdom of the founding fathers in basing our constitution on the assumption that people in power cannot be trusted, and their decisions must be questioned at every turn.

Those who have blindly supported Bush throughout his presidency have mistaken “loyalty to the player” for “loyalty to the team.” They have sat by and watched #43 make a mockery of the constitution by circumventing the will of congress via repeated abuses of presidential signing statements, warrantless wiretapping and the authorization of the torture of US prisoners; then, with a straight face, accused Barack Obama of disloyalty to his country for failing to wear a lapel pin.

Am I the only one who sees a tinge of irony in this?

I humbly propose a new tradition on this 4th of July. Take a moment out of all the flag waving, hotdog eating, soldier remembering festivities, and think.

-Y


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  #2  
Old 06-30-2008, 06:23 PM
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sojustask sojustask is offline
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Re: Lapel Pin Patriotism

Great post.
__________________
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When an honest man/woman who is mistaken learns the truth, at that exact moment, he/she ceases to be mistaken or he/she ceases to be honest.

When we are unable to find tranquility within ourselves, it is useless to
seek it elsewhere.
---= Francois de La Rochefoucauld



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  #3  
Old 06-30-2008, 08:37 PM
howdy howdy is offline
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Re: Lapel Pin Patriotism

Quote:
Originally Posted by yossarian View Post
With the 4th of July fast approaching, I thought I'd pose the following question: what is patriotism?

It seems many view patriotism in the context of outward signs of loyalty. American flag lapel pins, "I [Heart] USA" bumper stickers, tearing up during a singing of "God Bless the USA," etc.

Not that any of the above are bad -- I've got nothing against a red, white and blue thong, so long as the person wearing it is female. What worries me is that patriotism for the average US citizen (even the rabid enthusiast) can be equated to the dedication of the average sports fan. A surface display of insignia and manufactured emotion, designed to produce a hazy sense of overall goodness toward the country and its history.

Of course, it's not always quite that hollow. Pride in our soldiers (past and present), when they serve honorably, is a sacred thing and certainly a large part of any true patriot's repertoire.

However, patriotism is much less often thought of in the context of dissent. Those who challenge the government’s policies are often branded as traitors, disloyal fans of Team USA. What these “keepers of the flag” so conveniently ignore is the simple, incontrovertible fact that what makes our country one of the greatest on Earth is not the pride of its citizens, but the wisdom of the founding fathers in basing our constitution on the assumption that people in power cannot be trusted, and their decisions must be questioned at every turn.

Those who have blindly supported Bush throughout his presidency have mistaken “loyalty to the player” for “loyalty to the team.” They have sat by and watched #43 make a mockery of the constitution by circumventing the will of congress via repeated abuses of presidential signing statements, warrantless wiretapping and the authorization of the torture of US prisoners; then, with a straight face, accused Barack Obama of disloyalty to his country for failing to wear a lapel pin.

Am I the only one who sees a tinge of irony in this?

I humbly propose a new tradition on this 4th of July. Take a moment out of all the flag waving, hotdog eating, soldier remembering festivities, and think.

-Y
Wearing a lapel pin means nothing. Actions speak louder than words or a lapel pin. We have seen just some of what bush and his enablers have done some of which you just posted, and putting on a lapel pin and calling it patriotism does not cover up the crimes. Also bush has not really circumvented the will of congress, he has circumvented the will of the American people. Congress enabled him to do that. The congress has not stood up for the will of American people. They just put on a lapel pin, and say they are. I like your posts alot yossarian, very good.

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  #4  
Old 06-30-2008, 11:46 PM
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Re: Lapel Pin Patriotism

For most of us, I think our patriotism is reflected in the love of our family. To be able to share in our Pursuit of Happiness with the ones we love so dearly. To set aside the day of our Independence to remember those who have sacrificed all, so we may live free.

I see it in my fellow American's eyes when we are standing with our hands over our hearts as our Flag marches by at the head of a parade. Or at the baseball game tonight, where fathers, mothers, sons and daughters sang the National Athem toghether.

Democrates, Republicans and everyone in between all share in the pride of living in the greatest nation on earth. Just over 200 years ago we were a nation where one man could own another. Women were considered second class humans. People were persecuted for what God they believed in. We fought a war amongst ourselves that almost destroyed us. But through it all we grew wiser and stonger. We became more compassionate and forgiving.

We've accomplished in these 200 short years what no other people have done since the beginnng of mankind. Every race, every religion, every sect, creed, or color..we all work, eat, play and live TOGETHER here in the United States.

We've created a land where everyone's voice can be heard. No matter how assinine the thing you have to say is, you still have a right to say it.

I see it in the eyes of the men and women who have served and are still serving in our Armed Forces. My brothers and sisters in arms. The ones who don't wear lapel pins. They wear patches. The patches of our Flag on their uniforms as they go into harm's way. Not because they are forced to, but because they feel it is their DUTY to defend our land and our treasure. Because instead of whining and bitching, when they hear the call they stand and answer. They wear the bandages to cover their wounds and gaping holes where their arms or legs us to be. I saw the pride in their eyes when at the baseball game tonight, 4 of our returning heros stood at mid-field while 60,000 of us stood and cheered and cried and cheered some more. There is no way to express the pride we feel, the great joy and happiness that swells in our hearts to know that we are Americans.

May God bless America and all that dwell in our land!



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  #5  
Old 07-01-2008, 12:52 AM
kate blanchett kate blanchett is offline
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Re: Lapel Pin Patriotism

Is it actuallly possible to determine exactly what IS the "will of the people"?

We have, now, the ability to sample opinion, but as far as determination of what "the people" want....out of touch!

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  #6  
Old 07-01-2008, 12:58 AM
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Re: Lapel Pin Patriotism

I think we all want the same thing, peace and freedom.

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  #7  
Old 07-01-2008, 01:25 AM
howdy howdy is offline
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Re: Lapel Pin Patriotism

Quote:
Originally Posted by kate blanchett View Post
Is it actuallly possible to determine exactly what IS the "will of the people"?

We have, now, the ability to sample opinion, but as far as determination of what "the people" want....out of touch!
As far as I know you do not even live in this country, and you want to question me on the will of American people?

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  #8  
Old 07-01-2008, 03:11 AM
kate blanchett kate blanchett is offline
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Re: Lapel Pin Patriotism

anywhere....WE ALL HAVE ROUGHLY THE SAME STYLE OF GOVERNMENT...

I'm a believer in Western values, too, you know

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  #9  
Old 07-01-2008, 03:31 AM
kate blanchett kate blanchett is offline
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Re: Lapel Pin Patriotism

It does not matter where you live on this earth.....the "will of the people" has about as much relevance to politics as any of the other "values" that these elected officials espouse.

Here we have a forum where many of the participants openly criticize the actions of these same officials, and I certainly don't see anyone rushing to take notice...

Same for Australia....

Patriotism really means the end of individuality.....

We have the technological gadgets that could put ordinary decision making back in the hands of ordinary people, but I don't see anyone rushing to upgrade the facilities of democracy.

We still rely on individuals to transmit the "will" of the people through their own experience, and without consultation. Just remember, the Greeks came to the conclusion that democracy worked efficiently if only a small portion of the voting electorate where sampled for their views....so, they restricted voting "rights" to certain citizens only....pretty much the same ruling families every time. Social mobility in their "perfect" democracy was virtually unknown...

And, don't let my Australian residency fool you into thinking that we have no democratic freedom here....America is not the only country on earth, you know. If I didn't have a little political "faith" in the United States as a voting body, I really couldn't call myself a citizen of the world...

When you take on the role of Global Stickwielder, expect a little critique, even from your closest allies...

It's this questioning that makes us democratic to start with. Websites like this one are absolutely necessary in this modern world, to sample "the will of the people"...

Our leaders certainly don't want to know, and the media is too busy congratulating itself for "coverage" that isn't...

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  #10  
Old 07-01-2008, 06:46 AM
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franKg franKg is offline
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Re: Lapel Pin Patriotism

Quote:
Originally posted by Yossarian
Take a moment out of all the flag waving, hotdog eating, soldier remembering festivities, and think.
Wow another 4th of July Bush-bashing thread

I'm going to think about how gratefull we should be to have a President like George W Bush who , despite having had one of the toughest presidencies in American history has had to make some tough decisions and has been able to safeguard this country from terrorist attack since 9/11.

I'm going to think about President George W Bush crushed the Taliban , removed Saddam Hussein , put Iraq on the road to democracy (the Iraqi government accomplished more than our democratic lead congress last year), captured Uday and Qusay, drove Al-qaeada out of Iraq, convinced Mohmar Gaddafi to turn over his nuclear weapons program , sent more money to fight to spread of aids in Africa than all other countries combined ,disarmed North Korea, and bought all those responsible for 9/11 to justice

Do you people seriously believe Barack Hussein Obama can do the same ?

Not only does Barack Hussein Obama not have a better plan , he doesn't even acknowledge the existance of Al-Qaeda or the war on terror.

I'm going to think about how glad am that George W Bush is President of the United States of America.

and by the way I don't believe I will ever take time out from remembering the soldiers because think about them and thier families every day

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  #11  
Old 07-01-2008, 08:17 AM
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dchristie dchristie is offline
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Re: Lapel Pin Patriotism

Quote:
Originally Posted by franKg View Post
Wow another 4th of July Bush-bashing thread

I'm going to think about how gratefull we should be to have a President like George W Bush who , despite having had one of the toughest presidencies in American history has had to make some tough decisions and has been able to safeguard this country from terrorist attack since 9/11.

I'm going to think about President George W Bush crushed the Taliban , removed Saddam Hussein , put Iraq on the road to democracy (the Iraqi government accomplished more than our democratic lead congress last year), captured Uday and Qusay, drove Al-qaeada out of Iraq, convinced Mohmar Gaddafi to turn over his nuclear weapons program , sent more money to fight to spread of aids in Africa than all other countries combined ,disarmed North Korea, and bought all those responsible for 9/11 to justice

Do you people seriously believe Barack Hussein Obama can do the same ?

Not only does Barack Hussein Obama not have a better plan , he doesn't even acknowledge the existance of Al-Qaeda or the war on terror.

I'm going to think about how glad am that George W Bush is President of the United States of America.

and by the way I don't believe I will ever take time out from remembering the soldiers because think about them and thier families every day
LOL. Frankie needs to wipe Bush's cum from his face long enough to see what authentic "conservatives" think about Bush in a reality based and historic context.

That Frankie and his clueless ilk could consider themselves and their Flying Monkey Leader "conservative" in any sense is one of the most laughable political commentaries of our age.

For those who read about our time in the future, it will surely illuminate for them the level of blind ignorance that is endemic to so called "conservative" factions in most societies, whether they be Western, Asian, Islamic, Judaic or Christian.

And like The Radical Rabid-Right in America, they are always anything but "conservative".


Why Bush Will Become the Textbooks' Worst President

by Gary North

As a Ph.D. in American history, I think it is safe to say that George W. Bush will go into the history books as the worst President in American history.

Let me assure you, I do not share this view.

Any President who can start and then lose two brushfire wars, thereby revealing for the whole world to see that the American empire is a spent force, can't be all bad.

Afghanistan, as far as anyone can see on TV, is a war over headgear: turbans vs. Karzai's furry Nehru hat. (Whenever I see a photo of Karzai, I recall a 1960s-era comic photo of Nehru, looking like a Good Humor man, with the caption: "Would you like cherry vanilla?")

Because Bush has combined his remarkable military strategy with his Medicare prescription legislation, which will bankrupt Medicare at least a decade sooner than otherwise, he gets my grudging respect.

Furthermore, any President who can run budget deficits in the $400 billion range, year after year, thereby speeding up the bankruptcy of the Federal government, deserves credit – unlike the U.S. Treasury.

That this President singlehandedly has undermined the American public's trust in the Federal government's ability to establish and enforce both American foreign policy and domestic welfare policy – well, Bush's performance is simply breathtaking.

Taft conservatives and libertarians have been dreaming of someone like George W. Bush for four decades.

All this was accomplished by a man who visibly represents America's elite: a graduate of the Harvard Business School and a member of Yale's Skull & Bones.

In terms of his credentials, George W. Bush is one of the best and the brightest. If you are thinking, "The elite has clearly lost its ability to screen itself," I can only concur.

That scraping sound you hear is the bottom of the barrel.

THE BIGGEST LOSERS

In my undergraduate days, there was a tight race for the worst President between Grant and Harding.

Both of their administrations were plagued by corruption scandals.

Yet I am aware of no historian who blamed either Harding or Grant of having deliberately promoted corruption or having profited from it.

Both of them were pictured as naïve men who did not understand the powerful lure of government money for corrupt purposes, a relationship that apparently occurs only under Republican Presidential administrations, according to textbook accounts.

In recent years, Franklin Pierce, James Buchanan, and Andrew Johnson have replaced Grant on several lists.

These three have one thing in common: they did not invade the South to destroy slavery.

Johnson attempted to limit the effects of military Reconstruction after the war.

Buchanan is nevertheless ranked lower than Pierce or Johnson, for he had the audacity to delay the war, a policy that clearly bordered on treason.

Bush has come out of nowhere – or its ready substitute: Crawford, Texas – to make it onto several lists as the worst President of all time. I hope to explain why in this report.

PERSONAL MOTIVATION


I have a theory of the modern Presidency.

I believe that men – and one determined woman – seek this office for one reason above all others: to get their pictures on those Presidential calendars that are on public school classroom walls but no others.

This is the closest thing to immortality that an American can earn. The rest of the lures of Presidential power are peripheral: here today, gone tomorrow. But those calendars are forever – the American religious equivalent of Egyptian pyramids.

This means that Presidents live for posthumous recognition. They want to be treated well in the history textbooks.

Mr. Bush has good reasons to worry.

The paragraphs that he will receive will dwarf the opprobrium heaped on Richard Nixon.

Nixon wrote his way back into favor as a foreign policy statesman in the 1980s by promoting the globalist agenda in a series of best-selling books.

He also received retroactive credit for the re-establishment of official relations with Communist China in Mao's era.

That is the sort of thing that deeply impresses liberal academic historians. It did not impress conservative historians – either of them.

Bush is unlikely to initiate anything for which the historical guild will provide praise.

A MATTER OF STYLE


It is not just failed policies that draw the wrath of historians.

It is also the absence of style.

The media have as their credo, "Style covereth a multitude of sins."

Jack Kennedy is the incarnation of this creed.

Historians, who are part of the media, also adopt it.

Teddy Roosevelt, the fiery trustbuster with teeth like a grand piano, gets applause for his crowd-pleasing style.

His successor, William Howard Taft, who busted more trusts than Teddy ever did, had the style of a Solicitor General, which he had been, so he receives little credit in the textbooks.

In my generation, two Presidents have been the consummate losers in the Presidential style sweepstakes: Lyndon Johnson and George W. Bush.

They both seem completely ill at ease in front of a microphone. J

ohnson's rhetorical inabilities were legendary. "Mah Fellow Amuricans" became the stuff of stand-up comedy routines.

The photo of Johnson lifting his shirt to display his recent gall bladder operation scar became the representative image of his Presidency.

He was crude, gruff, and pushy as no President had ever been in public.

But he bullied Congress into passing the kind of legislation that liberals favor, so he got a free pass for his domestic policies.

It was Vietnam that sank him, but only after he was visibly losing the war. In 1964 and 1965, he was also given a free pass.

There was a reason for this.

Liberals in the Progressive mold respect political power.

It is the only thing they do respect.

They turn against political leaders only when it is clear that the leaders have failed to implement power on a scale that destroys – sometimes literally – all those who oppose them.

Long forgotten is the widespread admiration by Western intellectuals and political leaders – liberal (pre-1952) internationalist lawyer John Foster Dulles comes to mind – toward Mussolini and Hitler before World War II.

This is not something that we read about in textbook accounts of the 1930s.

This is because liberals write the textbooks.

Every historian has a memory hole. American intellectuals' respect for fascist economics and Nazi eugenic policies – copied from the American sterilization laws that were ratified by Buck v. Bell (1927) – went down the guild's memory hole only after 1936 – if then.

George W. Bush is not quite so verbally incoherent as his father, but at times he sounds really stupid. His father did not sound stupid. He sounded like a man who tripped over his tongue. Much of the time, the son sounds as though his brain has gone AWOL.

Yet Bush is not stupid. His memory for names and faces rivals that of Clinton, which is legendary.

He graduated from Yale University and Harvard Business School (MBA). No one does this who lacks IQ. But Bush does not seem to possess the ability to make informed judgments based on a consideration of conflicting evidence. Most politicians possess this skill. Indeed, it is basic to their success. Bush lacks it. For him, 2 plus 2 consistently make 5, except when they make 3.

THE HISTORICAL GUILD


Bush's decision-making style is another reason why the historical guild will savage him.

Historians pride themselves as being able to weigh the available evidence. They do so only retroactively, of course, long after any personal risk of taking disastrous action is gone.

They are drawn to people who seem to weigh the evidence before taking decisive action.

Bush takes decisive action, but his actions produce the opposite of what he says they will and actually seems to believe they will. This is the predictable effect of most government policies. Bush just makes the discrepancy more visible. For this, he is despised.
He will not admit a mistake – another sign of weakness.

A man of real power can admit mistakes because he can destroy those who would profit from them. Bush cannot destroy anyone except civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. So, the media now smell blood. Like chickens, they attack the defenseless to peck it to death.

Bush is not getting pecked to death because he is a conservative. He is anything but conservative. What outrages historians is that Bush is now calling into question the two icons of political liberalism: America's foreign policy empire and its national welfare state. He is revealing in plain view that both are costly shell games. Both are bankrupting the Federal government. Both are visibly going belly-up. This appalls historians. They worked so hard for seventy years to herald these policies as the Wave of the Future. Bush is turning both of them into the elephant burial grounds for the Council on Foreign Relations.

What the historical guild holds most in contempt is failed power.

They respect power, which is why Stalin and Mao have always received, if not free rides, then grudging respect for "making progressive things happen" and "pushing history forward."

But Bush is not making progressive things happen.


He is making progressive things backfire in full public view.


He is revealing exactly where the liberals' version of history has always been moving: toward centralized power, reduced freedom (except sexually), increased government debt, and wars against foreign civilians that cannot be won in a world of price-competitive, low-tech weapons.


George W. Bush is actively pushing the original Progressive agenda of 1898, but he is pushing it over a cliff.

The Left hates him for this.

CONCLUSION

George W. Bush will probably live long enough to see his name at the bottom of the list of all American Presidents: the worst this nation ever produced.


But when asked to defend reasons for his overwhelming failure, the historians will scramble for answers acceptable to the ideology of the guild.

They dare not say, "He broke the post-World War II American empire that Franklin Roosevelt launched and Harry Truman put nuclear teeth into." They must find alternative wording. They will mumble something like this: "He overreached the available military power." Ho, hum.

Then there is Bush's other failure: "He bankrupted the Federal government by turning control over to Asian central banks." Again, alternative phraseology will be developed. "He did not set realistic domestic goals." Boring.

The real reason for the media's hatred of Bush is this: "He has imprudently and without verbal grace smashed the Progressive agenda on the rocks of reality." Too forthright.

So, how can the historians tar and feather him, if all he did was push the Progressive agenda too far and too fast? With this: "He was a conscious agent of the Christian Right."

The fact that none of his advisors is a card-carrying member of this vast theocratic conspiracy will not matter. Bush is seen as a fellow traveler, even though he, like Clinton (on occasion), attends a United Methodist Church.

The historians will do to Bush what Bush said he would do to Osama bin Laden. They will bring him in "dead or alive."

Frankly, I think he is already DOA.


Last edited by dchristie : 07-01-2008 at 08:23 AM.
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  #12  
Old 07-01-2008, 09:08 AM
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franKg franKg is offline
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Re: Lapel Pin Patriotism

Gary North also predicted a nuclear war would occur with the Soviet Union in 1980 and that Western Civilization would collapse in 1999

This crackpot should find another line of work

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Old 07-01-2008, 09:24 AM
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dchristie dchristie is offline
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Re: Lapel Pin Patriotism

Quote:
Originally Posted by franKg View Post
Gary North also predicted a nuclear war would occur with the Soviet Union in 1980 and that Western Civilization would collapse in 1999

This crackpot should find another line of work
LOL.. Yeah right.. Let's talk about crackpots who should be in another line of work - like the Flying Monkey and Cheney who predicted we'd find WMDs in Iraq-Nam, it would only cost $12 Billion dollars, would be a cake-walk, and the oil theft would pay for the entire insane, ill-fated escapade. North didn't cost the taxpayers $500 Billion Dollars, 4100+ Dead and 30,000+ permanently maimed Americans for his predictions.


Last edited by dchristie : 07-01-2008 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:05 AM
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franKg franKg is offline
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Re: Lapel Pin Patriotism

Predicted yeah ,based on George Tenet's statement that Iraq was a "slam dunk" not to mention that Saddam wanted everyone to think he had weapons of mass destruction.

If you pull a fake gun on a policeman you are still going to get shot .


President George W Bush made the right call , if he hadn't then Iraq , Iran and North Korea would all be threatening us today.

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  #15  
Old 07-01-2008, 10:46 AM
kate blanchett kate blanchett is offline
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Re: Lapel Pin Patriotism

"If you pull a fake gun on a Policeman, you are still going to get shot."

Excellent comment....should be syndicated.

I thank the United States (and the taxpayers and soldiers thereof), for having the courage to stand up and oppose their enemies, rather than laying around and waiting for the rest of the world to catch on....

Happy Fourth of July to what is still a great nation, and a people of substance...

France, where were you?

They lay down and played "dead" in World War 2 as well.

Arrogant French......Problems just don't fix themselves. You need a FORCE with all the "toys" to make foriegn policy something other than mere words...

Thankyou America, and happy holiday....

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Old 07-01-2008, 10:57 AM
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dchristie dchristie is offline
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Re: Lapel Pin Patriotism

Quote:
Originally Posted by franKg View Post
Predicted yeah ,based on George Tenet's statement that Iraq was a "slam dunk" not to mention that Saddam wanted everyone to think he had weapons of mass destruction.

If you pull a fake gun on a policeman you are still going to get shot .


President George W Bush made the right call , if he hadn't then Iraq , Iran and North Korea would all be threatening us today.
Ha..ha..ha.. If Saddam's Regime wanted everybody to think they had WMDs, then why did they keep telling the truth about the fact that they had NO WMDs? ...not to mention the UNSCOM and Iraq Survey Group who were saying the same thing. .which Bush flat out ignored. And your analogy is bullshit. Saddam didn't even have fake WMDs. But North Korea still has nuclear weapons, Fucknuts. You need to take a long needed break from your BushCo Sausage, Frankie. It's not good for your cholesterol.

http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m45323&hd=&size=1&l=e


Last edited by dchristie : 07-01-2008 at 11:00 AM.
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  #17  
Old 07-01-2008, 11:05 AM
kate blanchett kate blanchett is offline
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Re: Lapel Pin Patriotism

Christie....

Why reply with all the swearing and bull?

Loss of credits for foul language....(blows whistle)....

"Unsportsmanlike behaviour"....

No wonder no-one listens to your rantings....People here have more time for GALAXY and SOULBRO than your stream of consciousness drivel...

The Western world could certainly do with a shake-up, but not from someone of your ilk....

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  #18  
Old 07-01-2008, 11:06 AM
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LogicallyYours LogicallyYours is offline
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Re: Lapel Pin Patriotism

Quote:
"I'm going to think about President George W Bush crushed the Taliban..."
So, there is no more Taliban...and they aren't causing trouble???


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