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  #19  
Old 09-21-2011, 01:00 AM
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Re: The Universe has to come from something

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A huge flaw in the Big Bang Theory is that even if matter had been created with a single mass, the attractive force of every particle in the universe in such a dense mass would not allow it to explode.
Really?...based on what science?
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  #20  
Old 09-21-2011, 06:44 AM
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Re: The Universe has to come from something

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Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
Really?...based on what science?
Our favorite Physics Go To Guy, none other than Einstein (and a few subordinates have some other reasons that have nothing to do with the explosion itself, but afterwards).

Einstein's Theory of General Relativity, specifically the postulation that huge ass objects would have equally strong gravity fields (so strong light would not escape) and the differentiation of matter wouldn't happen.

Since the entire universe compacted into a single mass would be one massive (pun intended) object, escaping those attractions is something I wouldn't bet on.

I'll take Einstein's word over Lemaitre, but hell - it's science, there's definitely no final word in science. So let us keep an open mind.

Hence the beloved quote, "If you think you know quantum physics, you don't know quantum physics!"
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  #21  
Old 09-21-2011, 09:21 AM
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Re: The Universe has to come from something

No...no...no...that I understand...what I was asking was, ...or what I meant was...or what I meant to ask was...knowing the gravitational constant, and that it's a very small number, and it explains why objects donít just stick to each other all the time...why is it so hard to calculate or theorize the force needed to cause the inflation from a (the) singularity?

Not my field so, I'm asking.
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  #22  
Old 09-21-2011, 12:52 PM
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Re: The Universe has to come from something

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Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
No...no...no...that I understand...what I was asking was, ...or what I meant was...or what I meant to ask was...knowing the gravitational constant, and that it's a very small number, and it explains why objects donít just stick to each other all the time...why is it so hard to calculate or theorize the force needed to cause the inflation from a (the) singularity?

Not my field so, I'm asking.
In science, singularity can have different meanings depending on context.

Usually it just means a point at which a certain model breaks or has unpredictable results.

For example, the big bang cannot describe the earliest instant in the universe, so this may be referred to as a "singularity", distinct from the singularity at the center of a black hole from which light cannot escape.

I don't know if this answers your question.

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  #23  
Old 09-21-2011, 01:10 PM
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Re: The Universe has to come from something

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Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
No...no...no...that I understand...what I was asking was, ...or what I meant was...or what I meant to ask was...knowing the gravitational constant, and that it's a very small number, and it explains why objects donít just stick to each other all the time...why is it so hard to calculate or theorize the force needed to cause the inflation from a (the) singularity?

Not my field so, I'm asking.
Ah, okay, I apologize, I misunderstood your question.

As far as physics (or science in general) goes, my specialty would be sound and magnetism though. Nevertheless, I think I have enough basic knowledge to offer at least a satisfactory answer.

To my understanding, it would be hard or maybe impossible to calculate the force needed to cause inflation because it's not possible to reproduce. As the theory goes, the universe supposedly expanded at a faster speed than that of light for a fraction of a second (which defies our modern natural laws) when inflation began. With no way to recreate the event, we can't make calculations.

As for theorizing, we can't do that either. There are too many variables due to infinitesimal containment (that is, all that exists -every property including time, being contained in the singularity). Let me expand on that by talking about just one variable: magnetism. Say we tried to theorize the diamagnetic (repulsive) field force of the singularity based on an average force of mass (which would be hard enough to come up with already) multiplied by it's theoretical size (if we could come up with that either) to get it's total diamagnetic force. By doing this, maybe we could figure out how much magnetism had to do with inflation. Now, if you're not familiar with the Chaos Theory, it in simplest terms is the butterfly effect. Anyway, all matter has a magnetic field, and the fluctuation of temperature can cause "Magnetic Chaos". If inflation surpassed the speed of light even for that fraction of a second, the change in temperature (among other things) would be huge, and I can only imagine the kind of Magnetic Chaos that would induce. Hell, trying to accurately calculate the force of two magnets after their fields have been altered can sometimes be an annoying little task...imagine that multiplied by...well, who knows...? How the hell would we know how much force actually contributed to inflation as far as just magnetism goes...? or maybe it was a weakening of the diamagnetic force that aided inflation...? It's too complex.

And that's only one of the endless amount of variables that would have to be considered to even theorize how much force would be involved...

Did that better answer your question...?
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Last edited by ejpseudo : 09-21-2011 at 01:14 PM.
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  #24  
Old 12-01-2011, 08:17 PM
Merit_ptha Merit_ptha is offline
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Re: The Universe has to come from something

Everything came from God's word. The universe, life, free will.

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  #25  
Old 12-01-2011, 10:37 PM
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Re: The Universe has to come from something

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Originally Posted by Merit_ptha View Post
Everything came from God's word. The universe, life, free will.
Oh, so you have proof of god? I'd love to see it.
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  #26  
Old 01-22-2012, 01:10 AM
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Re: The Universe has to come from something

well i thought i was gonna have an exclusive here but to keep it short, some-thing came from no-thing!?
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  #27  
Old 01-22-2012, 01:14 AM
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Re: The Universe has to come from something

I just figure the matter was already in existence and everything came from something re-arranging what already was.

Abiogenesis and/or big bang theory isn't my area, though.
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  #28  
Old 01-23-2012, 05:48 PM
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Re: The Universe has to come from something

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Originally Posted by EvilZoe View Post
I just figure the matter was already in existence and everything came from something re-arranging what already was.

Abiogenesis and/or big bang theory isn't my area, though.
If matter was already in existence, where did it come from?

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  #29  
Old 01-23-2012, 05:48 PM
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Re: The Universe has to come from something

It always was.
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  #30  
Old 01-23-2012, 05:51 PM
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Re: The Universe has to come from something

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Originally Posted by EvilZoe View Post
It always was.
Then, you mean it was eternal. How is that possible? For matter to be eternal it must defy the First Law of Thermodynamics. In common sense terms, matter cannot create itself.

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  #31  
Old 01-23-2012, 06:14 PM
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Re: The Universe has to come from something

I know something else that couldn't create itself either....
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  #32  
Old 01-23-2012, 06:36 PM
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Re: The Universe has to come from something

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Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
I know something else that couldn't create itself either....
Congratulations, you get a prize. Yes, God can't create "itself" because God, contrary to matter, is eternal.

Oh, I know the next question! Proof it, Okay, here we go again.

Prove matter is eternal. Since matter can be measured and therefore has substance, this should be easy.

Here's your chance to recover from your many failures.

Go ahead, put me in my place. Prove a natural cause explanation for the universe.

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  #33  
Old 01-23-2012, 06:54 PM
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Re: The Universe has to come from something

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Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
Congratulations, you get a prize. Yes, God can't create "itself" because God, contrary to matter, is eternal.

Oh, I know the next question! Proof it, Okay, here we go again.

Prove matter is eternal. Since matter can be measured and therefore has substance, this should be easy.

Here's your chance to recover from your many failures.

Go ahead, put me in my place. Prove a natural cause explanation for the universe.
Prove there isn't one.

You can't? Know why? NO ONE KNOWS YET.
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  #34  
Old 01-23-2012, 07:35 PM
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Re: The Universe has to come from something

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Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
Then, you mean it was eternal. How is that possible? For matter to be eternal it must defy the First Law of Thermodynamics. In common sense terms, matter cannot create itself.
Matter that is eternal does not defy the first law. The first law says energy cannot be created or destroyed - matter that has existed forever was not created or destroyed.

Your story, about god abracadbra-ing everything into existence would violate the first law because it involves the creation of energy.


To put this another way: The first law of thermodynamics will be violated if at time t_1 there is a different amount of energy in the universe than at time t_2. If matter is eternal, then you cannot pick a t_1 and t_2 where the total energy of the universe is different, and hence the first law cannot be violated.

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  #35  
Old 01-23-2012, 08:11 PM
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Re: The Universe has to come from something

Oh SNAP!....CPants, you just can't seem win the Science argument. Doesn't that just suck?
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  #36  
Old 01-23-2012, 10:30 PM
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Re: The Universe has to come from something

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Originally Posted by kazza View Post
Matter that is eternal does not defy the first law. The first law says energy cannot be created or destroyed - matter that has existed forever was not created or destroyed.

Your story, about god abracadbra-ing everything into existence would violate the first law because it involves the creation of energy.


To put this another way: The first law of thermodynamics will be violated if at time t_1 there is a different amount of energy in the universe than at time t_2. If matter is eternal, then you cannot pick a t_1 and t_2 where the total energy of the universe is different, and hence the first law cannot be violated.
Let's not forget the important principle of movement. For any "creating" to take place, there has to be movement if even on an exponentially small level. Movement requires location(s), which itself requires matter. No matter = no location(s) = no movement = no creation.
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